All washed up - The state of America today

[FisionChips]

An inability to protect its citizens. The belief that it is above the law. A lack of democracy. Three defining characteristics of the 'failed state'. And that, says Noam Chomsky, is exactly what the US is becoming. In an exclusive extract from his devastating new book, America's leading thinker explains how his country lost its way

From the Independent today - (The Independent will archive their articles after a few days into the 'pay for' portfolio - read it while it is free):

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article621899.ece

[xpgeek]

A very interesting read. I agree with much of it.

My thoughts, the downfall of this nation ....

Totalitarianism - a modern autocratic government in which the state involves itself in all facets of society, including the daily life of its citizens. A totalitarian government seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population, erasing the distinction between state and society. Totalitarian regimes maintain themselves in political power by means of propaganda, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, ....

Thats what this country is turning into. Call me crazy, a paranoid overly dramatic leftist, but the US is slowly turning into a Totalitarian state. The government wishing to control the beliefs and values of all Americans, not true ? The government making the decisions on what we are to consider moral, no gay marriage, a war on pornography (it was the US government that practically single handedly blocked ICANN from creating of a .xxx domain name). Use of mass surveillance? Only a true Bush lover can deny anymore that the 'domestic spying' program extends far beyond terrorist suspects.

And of course, our empire like military forces that we use to police the globe anyway we see fit. Bush is far from the first president to use this nation's forces to topple governments that refuse to cooperate with us, er rather, refuse to do what we tell them to. The US has truly become the modern day Roman empire, conquerers maintaining its rule over much of the world with its vast military strength. Do what we say, or else.

Spreading freedom we are, is the line Americans are expected to believe without question, seeding democracy across the globe. As long as we agree with the democracy they choose to accept anyway. The Palestinians are prime current example. We supported their free elections, encouraged them to vote, choose their future, but when they elected Hamas, we say uh no, thats not who we wanted you to vote for, and refuse to acknowledge Hamas as a legitimate government. Could we possibly look like bigger hypocrites?

When it comes to the current situation with Iran, nothing less then the term 'war mongering' will do. The Bush administration is just trying to start a war there. Iran has declared they will stop all uranium enrichment, abandon its project and even allow UN inspectors in to verify as such, IF the US will make 'security promices', a promise not to attack them unless outright provoked. The US refuses this deal. Iran has called for diplomatic talks with the US, but no, the US refuses to talk to Iran. Iran is doing all their talking with European nations, but is hesitant to agree to anything, because it knows, Europe has no power over the US, and the US doesn't give a crap what Europe says, we will always do whatever we want. Iran is actually trying to settle this diplomatically, and its the US refusing to talk, just trying to start a war.

And frankly, for all the preaching we do about the greatness of democracy, our own democratic system is completely broken. Half of this country doesn't even bother to vote. Corporate corruption into government is everywhere, lobbyists buying politicians with unlicensed campaign contributions everywhere, and the government violating its own laws anytime it sees fit. Breaking more laws everyday to keep covered up the ones its already broken. Shredding the constitution. Slowly stripping away Americans rights one by one. Never have I been more ashamed to call myself an American.

... Awaits L-knot's Republican minded reply ...

[Neo, Knock, Knock]

IF the US will make 'security promices', a promise not to attack them unless outright provoked. The US refuses this deal. Iran has called for diplomatic talks with the US, but no, the US refuses to talk to Iran. Iran is doing all their talking with European nations,
US agrees to talks with Iran in return for nuclear freeze
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
Published: 01 June 2006

In a major diplomatic shift, the US now says it will join its European allies in direct negotiations with Iran over its nuclear programme, once Tehran suspends the uranium enrichment that many suspect is aimed at securing a nuclear weapon.

Just an FYI, complete story by clicking original posted link

[xpgeek]

Yes I saw this news story just hours ago, theres a condition tho, first stop all uranium enrichment, then we'll actually talk to you about getting you to stop your uranium enrichment. Huh? Exactly. I expect Iran's response to be oh screw you.

The real problem here is just the attitude of the US towards Iran, we have maintained this we are right and you are wrong and we don't really care if you disagree attitude towards Iran. Iran is not some weak little country we can just go topple in a day if we wish, they have one of the largest standing army's on earth, one heckova air force and quite a large naval fleet too. The US has failed, more like refused, to show Iran any actual respect as a nation, we treat them like a backwards confused people just not seeing the light of what we say, and don't get me wrong, Iran's current government is a radical anti-Isrial regime, but I sympathize with them on some level, they are not going to be ordered about by the US.

[Neo, Knock, Knock]

The real problem here is just the attitude of the US towards Iran
remember the 70's (before you I suspect)
The US has failed, more like refused, to show Iran any actual respect as a nation, we treat them like a backwards confused people just not seeing the light of what we say
again, the 70's! But I do agree with what you have said. Mr. Bush and his administration, what more can I say, except I as you await L-Knots' contribution to topic. :)

[xpgeek]

I do remember the 70's tho, before my time yes but I am a student of history. Most people today forget tho, the whole reason that the uprising and seizing of American hostages even happened, was our blatant interference with the nation already. When the uprising happened, the president of Iran was a US puppet.

[xpgeek]

And Iran has replied, as I expected...

"The United States said Wednesday it would join in face-to-face talks with
Iran over its disputed nuclear program once Tehran puts its atomic activities on hold, a shift in tactics meant to offer the Iranians a last chance to avoid punishing sanctions.

Iran dismissed the offer as "a propaganda move."

"Our message to the Iranians is that one, you won't have a weapon, and two, that you must verifiably suspend any programs, at which point we will come to the negotiating table to work on a way forward," Bush said.

The Iranian news agency said Iran accepts only proposals and conditions that are in the nation's interest. "Halting enrichment definitely doesn't meet such interests," IRNA said. "

Full story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_nuclear)

See, just, my biggest problem here is, yes I know the current Iranian government is a radical one, but, the US says you will NOT have a weapon, and you WILL suspend any programs, because we said so thats why. Well, who died and made the US boss of the entire world.

[Neo, Knock, Knock]

Agreed, and correct, who did???

[FisionChips]

Sadly True.

I expect Iran's response to be oh screw you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5036082.stm

I think that covers 'screw you' quite nicely.

[Uguel]

I think that Iran, much like any other nations, have the right to pursue the technology they want. But the thing is the current government is run by extremists and their president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made many reckless declarations (especially against Israel) since he is elected. I think that it is normal to have suspicions about him. Also, the fact that he made a point of bragging about their Uranium enrichment certainly did not help his case either. If he really does U enrichment only for energy purpose (which I doubt) he should be more careful when addressing the Press. Because I don't think that Israel will hesitate, not even a second, to use their nuclear weapons if they really feel threated. Let's hope that they will all negotiate and reach an agreement though.

[L-knot]

Awaits L-knot's Republican minded reply - I identify with no political party. I'm not a one issue voter.


Iran did sign with Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty so the USA is not being a bully but calling Iran on possible violations that it has agreed upon in the past.

Then you got this nutcase saying Israel should be wiped off the face of the planet and wanting nuclear capability almost all in the same breath. How logical does it need to be? Does 14th Century mindset coupled to Islamic philosophy with nuclear capability sound like a good plan?

I'm tired of arguing politics with the hard left - especially with the CT-ers. For one, they don't make any logical sense - "a missile hit the pentagon because there is no video proof it was a plane" - wonderful logic: no video proof is proof it was something else.

But hey, can it get any worse than:

In short, Mexico is so corrupt, so oligopolistic, so rotting inside with the privilege of the rich that it has to send its poor and its potential political activists to another country. And on top of that, it tries to blame the United States for its own failures.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060530/news_mz1e30geyer.html

Here, the whole world is going to crap - we are all doomed. How's this grab 'ya: http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?print=yes&id=15233

[xpgeek]

Iran did sign with Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty so the USA is not being a bully but calling Iran on possible violations that it has agreed upon in the past.

Thing is, the US signed that same treaty too, and made a commitment to reduce our number of nuclear weapons, which we haven't followed at all. Not only are we not reducing our numbers, we're still designing new ones too. They've been trying to detonate and test a new one in New Mexico, or Arizona, Utah maybe, somewhere around there, for the last few months, and have been blocked by citizens protesting and getting their elected officials to legally block it.

So its just, much like our dealings with the Palestinians, the US can be pretty hypocritical in our foreign policy, demanding compliance to a nuclear treaty we don't comply with ourselves.

[L-knot]

Personally, I would be hesitant in complying with the treaty with newly or nearly nuclear capable states with the likes of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as head of state. I wouldn't want to be caught with my pants down.

Far worse, IMO, is the threat of biological terrorism. "many of these deadly agents are not too hard to obtain from hospitals or labs. And once obtained, anyone with some university-level knowledge of microbiology or chemistry would know how to make useful amounts"

Here's this: http://www.state.gov/t/ac/rls/rm/41786.htm
Over the past 15 years, we have:

* Reduced from over 10,000 deployed strategic warheads to less than 6,000 by December 5, 2001 as required by the START I Treaty.
* Eliminated nearly 90% of U.S. non-strategic nuclear weapons and reduced the number of types of nuclear systems in Europe from five in 1991 to just one today.
* Dismantled more than 13,000 nuclear weapons since 1988.
* Not produced highly enriched uranium for nuclear weapons since 1964 and halted the production of plutonium for nuclear weapons in 1988.
* Not conducted a nuclear explosive test since 1992.
* Removed more than 200 tons of fissile material from the military stockpile; enough material for at least 8,000 nuclear weapons.


**I enjoy this board as it has become increasingly apparent that many boards that discuss politics become reduced to personal insults for one's beliefs and/or country they reside in. I have even noticed a popular tech board (which does not discuss politics) ignore it's USA citizen members requests for help or they limit their replies - I kid you not. It's not uncommon to see threads that are all USA flags with perhaps one Canadian flag. I noticed this change in atmosphere because I was a member there since 2002. That is the reason why I left my location blank here.



It is much different here.


BTW, you can read the article here with feedback: http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20060530105108284

Much more feedback: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13426.htm

[xpgeek]

I hope that it is different here. I have in no way meant to insult you personally, the Republican remark was just a little kidding as it is my opinion some of your opinions fall into Republican lines, I apologize if it insulted you personally. I recognize our differences in opinion, and respect yours.

[L-knot]

You didn't insult me, I was just setting the record straight. Yes, I do agree with some of the opinions of Republicans but not all.

[Neo, Knock, Knock]

Thank you for your contribution L-knot. I don't think anyone on this board, knowingly would insult anyone. You seem to be well versed on the topics and discussions you parcipate in, and very much appreciated, truly :D :thanks:

[L-knot]

Thank you for your contribution L-knot. I don't think anyone on this board, knowingly would insult anyone. You seem to be well versed on the topics and discussions you parcipate in, and very much appreciated, truly :D :thanks:


Thank you Neo, but to be honest - I'm not well versed. I'm only looking at some facts and opinions and sorting them out through my own perceived sense of logic and reality - hoping I arrive at a relatively sound opinion. If not, then that's the best of my ability at this time to see things as they really are. Much depends on frame of mind, mood and other influences that alter our perceptions. Sometimes I find myself way out of bounds - but that's ok since I can recognize it at least - :lol:

[FisionChips]

I have even noticed a popular tech board (which does not discuss politics) ignore it's USA citizen members requests for help or they limit their replies - I kid you not. It's not uncommon to see threads that are all USA flags with perhaps one Canadian flag.

Strange place the web...

EW is fundamentally a place where you can expect respect and equal treatment wherever you happen to be from. If any 'joshing' takes place it is well humoured.
If we didn't want to invite different opinions on controversial subjects, we simply wouldn't post the controversial subjects. It is very pleasant to have well balanced discussion backed up with external references.... so keep it coming! lol.

To my mind the big fly in the Middle Easts ointment is Israel. But the history here again shows the British with very muddy hands... Northern Ireland was a similar problem of our making.
http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

BUT Israel has been aggressive in the extreme, forcibly displacing the Palestinian people stealing their land and forcing them to live in poverty.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

Israel has never signed the Non-proliferation Treaty on Nuclear Arms and has an arsenal of over 200 (by external estimates). If you want to look at a problem state with weapons of mass destruction it is Israel that must be considered.....

For all our banging on about fair democracy, as Mike (Xpgeek) pointed out, when the Palestinians actually VOTED for Hamas, sanctions were imposed because the choice was unpalatable to other nations.

This, I believe, is the true problem with the US and UK, this bullying type of foreign policy will achieve nothing other than violent retribution in the future. We are buying hatred for our children instead of building bridges based on compensation, acceptance, understanding and respect.

As for Iran, as much as I believe balance needs to be restored, that balance is best achieved by the removal of Israels weapons. It is bad news for ANY country to be considering building nuclear weapons but they should be permitted to do so whilst Israel keeps its arsenal.

[xpgeek]

Israel is the root of all our problems in the middle east if you ask me.

A blog post I wrote some time ago that I think also applys here ...

Syrian forces to leave Lebanon

Due to recent events in Lebanon, and some international pressure too, Syria has announced they are withdrawing all Syrian forces, including intelligence forces, from Lebanon. And throwing the fact that they are doing it right back in Bush's face.

On a CNN morning show interview, a Syrian ambassador pointed out that Syrian forces entered Lebanon to end a bloody civil war, that they have done so, and are leaving now that it has become clear to them they are no longer wanted there. Whether this will actually happen as promised remains to be seen. He also went on to point out that in this process, Syria has never colonized any Lebanese land, never built a single Syrian settlement inside Lebanon, and never demolished a single house of a Lebanese citizen.

Obvious at that point that he was referring to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, he came right out and said it. Now that Syria is making a full withdrawal of all its forces from Lebanon, which the US and president Bush applied pressure on them to do, Bush himself said in his recent inauguration speech of the Middle East that all oppressed people of the Middle East should be free from their oppressors, Syria is now urging the US to follow their example, and to apply pressure on Israel to withdraw from Palestinian lands.

Will the US do this ? I highly doubt it. They should.

The topic of Israel is a controversial subject here in the US. People love to throw around strong words, like supporting terrorists, and being anti-Semitic, every time someone speaks out against Israel in support of the Palestinians. I am not condoning or supporting the terrorist tactics of certain Palestinian groups, nor am I anti-Semitic, but I am strongly against the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands. Frankly, in my personal opinion, I think Israel is a thorn in the side of US relations with the Middle East, and a major reason so many Middle Eastern Muslim cultures hate us so much.

I also like to point out, that at an International Racism conference held several years ago in Africa, in which a dozen or more countries called Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people racist, which I agree with, that the US representatives walked out of the conference in support of Israel.

So, If Syria does what they promise, the oppressed people of Lebanon, according to Bush anyway, will be free of their oppressors. Will the US apply pressure for Israel to follow suite ? I say again, I highly doubt it, but only time will tell.

[L-knot]

Yes, I really appreciate it here at EW - a much more mature debate is possible here.



As far as Israel. Here is Dr. Wafa's take:

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

More(some very powerful words spoken here): http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1299733200&en=513886e2ba5e106f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

“I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book.”
- DR. WAFA SULTAN

[L-knot]

another very profound/provocative message - http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21364

I was ten years old when my home exploded around me, burying me under the rubble and leaving me to drink my blood to survive, as the perpetrators shouted “Allah Akbar!” My only crime was that I was a Christian living in a Christian town. At 10 years old, I learned the meaning of the word "infidel."

I had a crash course in survival. Not in the Girl Scouts, but in a bomb shelter where I lived for seven years in pitch darkness, freezing cold, drinking stale water and eating grass to live. At the age of 13 I dressed in my burial clothes going to bed at night, waiting to be slaughtered. By the age of 20, I had buried most of my friends--killed by Muslims. We were not Americans living in New York, or Britons in London. We were Arab Christians living in Lebanon.

As a victim of Islamic terror, I was amazed when I saw Americans waking up on September 12, 2001, and asking themselves "Why do they hate us?" The psychoanalyst experts were coming up with all sort of excuses as to what did we do to offend the Muslim World. But if America and the West were paying attention to the Middle East they would not have had to ask the question. Simply put, they hate us because we are defined in their eyes by one simple word: "infidels."This is the ugly face of the enemy we are fighting. We are fighting a powerful ideology that is capable of altering basic human instincts. An ideology that can turn a mother into a launching pad of death.Even the Nazis did not turn their own children into human bombs, and then rejoice at their deaths as well the deaths of their victims. This intentional, indiscriminate and wholesale murder of innocent American citizens is justified and glorified in the name of Islam.America cannot effectively defend itself in this war unless and until the American people understand the nature of the enemy that we face. Even after 9/11 there are those who say that we must “engage” our terrorist enemies, that we must “address their grievances”. Their grievance is our freedom of religion. Their grievance is our freedom of speech. Their grievance is our democratic process where the rule of law comes from the voices of many not that of just one prophet. It is the respect we instill in our children towards all religions. It is the equality we grant each other as human beings sharing a planet and striving to make the world a better place for all humanity. Their grievance is the kindness and respect a man shows a woman, the justice we practice as equals under the law, and the mercy we grant our enemy. Their grievance cannot be answered by an apology for who or what we are.



All I can say is WOW. I applaud these two women for speaking up.